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~ The Treaty ~

The Treaty Debate 17th December 1921

On resuming the Speaker took the Chair at 4.35 p.m.

MR. PAT HOGAN: I hope not to say very much. It has already been said by previous speakers. There are two points which I should like to dwell upon. Three or four times in this Dáil today and yesterday Deputies were reminded that they had been, so to speak, challenged at the previous session when the plenipotentiaries were to be appointed to stand up and say their say and declare one way or another. That was mentioned a few times by Deputy Miss MacSwiney, by Mr. MacEntee and by the Deputy for Louth and by Mr. McDonald¹.

MR. HOGAN: By others. I am quite clear about that anyway. It was mentioned here three or four times. I deny the right absolutely of any delegate in this Assembly to dictate to the rest as to when they should speak and when they should not (Hear, hear). I deny the right of a private member and I deny the right of a member of the Cabinet. We have all our own consciences and our own pledges and our own constituencies to consider and we have all got intelligences such as they are. We must be all allowed to judge when we should speak and when we should remain silent. That is a matter for ourselves absolutely. There is a lot of talk about principle but I think that is clear anyway. Now, as to the point [as to] what did happen on that occasion. Some people put some interpretation on it and other people put other interpretations on it. Deputy Miss MacSwiney put an interpretation on it that the plenipotentiaries were sent over, and I must say also that the Deputy for Louth put the very same interpretations on it, that the plenipotentiaries were sent over without any hope whatever of effecting what I will call, for want of a better word, a settlement for tactical reasons of one thing [recte kind] or another. The Deputy for Louth stated that he interpreted the President's attitude in not going over as meaning that there could be no chance whatever of a settlement out of these particular negotiations. Well, Deputy Miss MacSwiney and the Deputy for Louth are entitled to put that interpretation if they wish but we have the documents before us. We know the statements in this document made by Mr. Lloyd George. We know what took place at the Dáil but we were equally interpretated [recte entitled] to put our own interpretations on that also and we were entitled to take into account what the President said, that all through these negotiations he was out for peace and if possible he would get peace. We were entitled to put our new [recte own] interpretations on that and we should not be baited at any time by what any member of the Dáil says. The other point I want to touch very shortly is on the Oath of Allegiance; and before saying anything I may say this, that it seems to me extraordinary that when a difficulty arises that we should adopt the attitude of a board of guardians and let someone get up and suggest that we should get it adjourned for counsel's opinion. For a sovereign assembly to take up this position is extraordinarily futile. It could not happen anywhere else, in any other such assembly in any other country in the world and it is an extraordinary condition of futility. There is a good bit of confusion, some of it deliberate, some of it accidental and some of it inevitable. We have heard all sorts of ministry relations and misunderstandings for the last two or three days: but really the one thing we should avoid is deliberate misquotation—and I have heard for the last hour, for the last three days, deliberate unquotation [sic]. I have heard Madame Markievicz say we are taking the Oath of Allegiance to the English King. I have the misfortune to be a lawyer but I have heard more pettifogging from members here than I ever heard from lawyers in my life (applause). I am asking you to read the Oath—misinterpret it if you like but don't misquote it. There is no Oath of Allegiance to an English king or to any other king. Be clear about that. I don't know whether I ought to read it for you or not. “I do solemly swear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution of the Irish Free State as by law established”. Is there any allegiance to that? That much of it is alright I presume anyway. “And that I will be faithful to H.M. King George V. his heirs and successors”. When all the excitement is over I wanted to point out that personally I always feel foolish in making verbal distinctions but they seem to appeal to this Dáil. In any case I don't want to put a lawyer's interpretation but I want to put [236] an ordinary plain educated man's interpretation on these words. Any man that looks at Nuttall's dictionary will see that there is a difference between allegiance and faith, and if there is, why then say we are giving an oath to an English king? There are lawyers in this Assembly and I ask them to contradict me if I am wrong when I say that faith is what you would give to an equal, what you are to every man. It is the same as recognition, absolutely the same as recognition. If the word recognition means anything it means that you will be faithful to the bargain you entered into and to the person with whom you are entered into the bargain. This is the sort of thing I don't like because it is like juggling with words and these are ordinary words and they can be interpreted in the ordinary way but this Assembly seems to love having them errected [recte dissected]. Now let us have the point settled and will anyone get you here and say that we are giving an Oath of Allegiance to an English king or to any king.

MR. HOGAN: We were to recognise the English king as head of the [gap in original] and be faithful to the English King as head. Anyone who sees distinctions is [welcome] to them. Now that is the second point. Now the third point is this what Mr. Beasley in a previous speech said was the one in which he would give a united Ireland and that is the driving out of England out of the country as Lord Carson described it “bag and baggage”.

That is the real mandate you have got from Ireland; you got no mandate for a form of government as such. Does anyone tell me here that you were given a mandate in Ireland for a form of government as against a mandate for freedom and for the cleaning out of the English of this country “bag and baggage”? Any honest man facing the situation clearly will know and admit that. That is the way personally I always regarded the mandate. I think my few public statements never said anything contrary to that. To the purest Republican in this Assembly that is a profound truth and if it is right I ask every man in this Assembly to consider it and to say whether or not he is going to plunge the country into war for a mandate for an issue which was never before the country

MR. SEÁN T. O'KELLY: On a point of order. As this mandate has been raised may I read one paragraph from the mandate.

MR. HOGAN: If that point is worth anything. The real issue put before the country always was the clearing out of the English independent of any form of government. That is a perfect truth and I think it is a truth which everyone should seriously consider. Certainly I think they should make up their minds on it before they plunge the country into war. Now there is another certainty emerging out of all the obscurities and that is that war is going to follow. The chairman of the delegation [237] has said it and the Minister for Home defence [sic] has said it. Is there any member of the Dáil going to contradict that? Is any member like myself going to contradict that? Is any member like myself going to contradict that which is a common case from both sides? I take it that there is not and I think we ought to have heard the last word. For that reason I think we ought to have an end once and for all to all this talk about accommodation—I use these words deliberately—if it means putting forward another proposal. Nobody who has any real sense some [sic] of the position likes to see this Dáil split but what I do object to is soft talk at this time of the day of accommodation when we know there can be no accommodation in lines of another treaty. I do not say people mean it to be eye-wash but in view of what the delegates say on the one side and the Minister of Defence on the other what else can it be but soft-salt [recte talk] and however much we may like to pay compliments to one another at this time of the day we ought to face realities. The head of the delegation states you have got the very last word.

People seem to think they were there only a week. They were practically there six months.

MR. HOGAN: Well I mean from the Truce period. They were there two months. Even the country was beginning to wonder how they were able to drag it out so long. They came back and forward five or six times and now we are faced here with the assumption that they should have come back once oftener. But who were the best judges of that than the men on the spot? I would like to know on what basis, on what grounds and on what assumptions the arguments that they might have come back another time is based. It is on the well known credulity of Mr. Collins and Mr. Griffith's soft-headedness and the lamblike disposition of Mr. Lloyd George. What is it based on? No one is entitled to come to conclusions on a serious matter like this on mere whim. Every man owes it to himself to make up his mind on the realities and the plain, simple, logical arguments that apply to the case. I want to know what is that based on. I want to know how any private member can take the responsibility of plunging the country into war because he thinks Mr. Collins or Mr. Griffith or any other member of the delegation made a fool of himself because he has come to the conclusion at the eleventh hour that Mr. Collins or Mr. Griffith happened to be softheaded. Because that is the assumption, that is what it comes to. Now there is just one other point. I am in favour of the Treaty and I am going to vote for it. I am in favour of it because I believe what Mr. Griffith says, that it gives us the substance of freedom and that it is a Treaty that Ireland can with honour accept. I am going to vote for it for that reason first of all. I am going to vote for it because he could not get any better, because the alternative is war and because my constituencies want me to vote for it (Hear, hear) and I have absolutely no sympathy for the people who are going to vote for it under protest, none whatever; that is only a weak way of justifying yourself to yourself and everybody else. Everyone would get better if they could. We should assume that we all know the circumstances of the case and let us deny afterwards once and for all this talk about the watery [sic] for it. Assume under protest that everybody is just as sensible and patriotic as yourself. And that the plenipotentiaries into the bargain are just as primitive as yourself. Don't refuse the issue. We all know the circumstances and I confess that I cannot understand the attitude of a member of the delegation who says he would vote for it in London and would not vote for it in Dublin. I think it is mental bankruptcy that sort of thing. I heard there were going to be many charges that the plenipotentiaries and a serious charge made against Mr. Collins that he was befogged. Now at this hour of the day one of the plenipotentiaries comes and tells that while he voted for it in London he would not vote for it in Dublin. I cannot understand that point of view and I think we are entitled to an explanation. That is all I have got to say (applause).

MR. M.P. COLLIVET: I won't detain you very long; because we started discussing the genesis of the Treaty, and from that drifted on to the Treaty itself although it was originally intended that the Treaty should be debated in public. We are now debating the Treaty itself. I think it would be more to the point if we spent the time debating here another issue, its rejection or ratification. We could maintain as far as [238] possible an outward union at least to the nation—that is to prevent anything in the way of a split amongst the Assembly or amongst ourselves. I think our time this evening really would be better spent at that. At the same time there would be a general desire on the part of the members to proclaim themselves. At this point don't think that the expression of any private member like myself is going to sway anyone and therefore it will not be necessary for me to go into arguments one way or another but as precisely I can give my views. First of all I believe that the action of the delegates in signing the documents was perfectly legal and legitimate. With regard to the Treaty itself I cannot reconcile it to my principles although I value the arguments made here by those who supported the Treaty that the alternative to ratification is a most disastrous one for the country itself. Whether it be war or by a proclamation of a general election by Lloyd George that the question be immediately put before the country it means a split for the country which would be just as disastrous as physical war as that—whatever way it goes it will be a general disaster for the country if the Treaty is not accepted. I don't hold out any high hopes that there will be any other alternative. The result is that anything I could possibly do to reconcile it to my conscience I would do it to avoid that fait accompli. The last word I had from the president of my Comhairle Cheanntair when leaving to this session was, “for God's sake don't get us a split”. The constituencies didn't attempt to bind my hands in any manner and I came here with an open mind altogether. Strongly prejudiced against the Treaty at the start, but I make this admission that my mind is still open until the truce [recte Treaty] comes to vote. The thing is too serious to make up one's mind in the cast iron mould and be afraid of changing it because you have said one thing or another (Hear, hear). At present I find there are two things in that document which I could not in conscience take. I could never bring myself to take that Oath of Allegiance to a foreign king. And that oath is landrum [recte laid down] in the Treaty although it does not state “allegiance”. I fully admit with Deputy Hogan that the word “faithful” has not the same meaning as “allegiance” but it does mean faithful and “faithful” has a meaning and it means faithful to the King in a dual position in virtue of Ireland's common citizenship with Great Britain and her adherence to membership of the Commonwealth or words to that effect. The King has a dual status. As King of Great Britain he commands a position and has just the same power which he had over India or Egypt and all the associated states of Great Britain, Canada, South Africa, and Australia. These words, the common citizenship of Ireland with Great Britain, in my opinion being in the two statuses of the King I swear to be faithful to him in the dual position. Now I am faced with this: Will I perjure myself? Can I perjure myself and violate my own conscience and dishonour my honour to avoid disaster for the country? Up to the present I cannot bring myself to do it. My personal honour and conscience are to me sacred things. I know that men in the past have violated their personal honour for the sake of their nations. I could not do it up to the present and whether between this and tomorrow I will have got over the gap I cannot say. I am only letting you have my own views and my personal position. I am claiming no infallibility for my views and I am throwing no slur on the honour and integrity of the men who differ from me or of the men who do consider that their previous adherence to the Republican ideal is consistent with their acceptance of this Treaty. The next point I wish to raise is this. Is it possible for other members when speaking to confine themselves as short as possible and if we could before we break up find our minds dum [sic] to what we can do to preserve an assented [sic] nation. We have all up to the present been as cemented as concrete. There is no doubt about the question and we can get it together. The question is can we get it back and that is a more serious matter than any long disquisition on these verbal matters. I think most people have made up their minds one way or the other and I think we ought to settle ourselves down to considering this—suppose this Treaty is rejected Lloyd George may take the inner course and not declare war but compel us by press propaganda or announcing a general election to go to the people and present them with their answer. If that takes place it is more than likely that both parties may take it to the hustings—to use an old expression—and there may be bitterness. Would it not be possible that we refuse to play into the hands of Mr. Lloyd George and that if there is anything [239] put to the country it would be put not as one party against another but as something in the nature of a plebiscite. In other words that we did not go forward as two parties—one Republican and the other anti-Republican for I claim we are all Republicans and as Republicans we put it up to the people whether at the present moment they are willing to accept an internal association with the British Empire. I am only [throwing] out this as an illustration of what might be done to prevent the disastrous consequences of a split in the country. War is not so serious for this reason. It can be easier dealt with because I take it that if we reject that Treaty we will be united in abiding by the decision of the majority of the Dáil and that our army will fight unitedly as far as it can. Although I do agree that the army is not in as good a position to fight the British army as some people seem to think but so far as it can be put up resistance. It will be only on lines of how best to carry it on and that there will be no recriminations on whose fault it is or it is not.

MR. SÉAMUS ROBINSON: The last speaker has made a few good suggestions and I would like to hear some of the Ministers on them before I go any further—that is if the Minister will say whether or not there is going to be any action taken on them. If not I will go on. I am not a politician. I do not know how to make a speech, thank God. The previous speaker (Mr. Hogan) said the people had not given a mandate for the Republic at the last general election. Here is the manifesto to the Irish people in 1918. “Sinn Féin gives Ireland an opportunity of vindicating her honour, of pursuing with renewed confidence the policy of National Salvation by rallying to the flag of the Irish Republic.”

MR. HOGAN: On a point of order I said “at the last general election”.

THE PRESIDENT: The words in that manifesto were, “For the confirmation of the legitimacy of the Republic.”

MR. ROBINSON: Another vexed question raised by Mr. Hogan was the Oath. A great many clever men seem to think it is not an oath and others seem to think it is because Lloyd George himself seems to think it is. I am a Republican and I hope there remain Republicans—so many great men have changed I fear for myself too. Touching on the different documents, certainly I am not in love with Tweedledum or Tweedledee but still I believe there is a difference but it is not a difference worth fighting about. Now some Deputies have said that allowing these men to go to London was sufficient guarantee on our part that we were prepared for a certain amount of compromise. I deny that the words “arivate [recte associate] with” can mean absolutely nothing that they are anaveratious [recte associations] as France could be with England. We are not trying ourselves in any way and I think the President made that clear in his speech. I also used to think that Lloyd George had bluffed this country. I think the President is really the man who started this asseveration [recte association] idea in the country. It is not a matter of killing soldiers at all. This is not a war similar to the one that England was waging against Germany. She could and should round up every German in the country. England could not do that with Irishmen at all and Irishmen would always be there. That is the peculiar difference, I think. All this talk about English extermination we have heard ever since we were youngsters. I say that 50 men in England would be able to counteract any destruction that the British could do because thanks to British oppression we are not a manufacturing country like England and if she destroyed every home in Ireland I believe in 5 years we could re [gap in original]. England depends upon her factories and shipyards and we could work more destruction in England than she could on us. At any rate, it would be a permanent loss to England and it would be only a temporary loss to us. We are not going to to fight the whole British nation. Fifty men across in England could do more damage than a serious fighting.

A DEPUTY: The police will not let them through.

MR. ROBINSON: I suppose that is a joke.

MADAME MARKIEVICZ: It is only his own experience.

MR. ROBINSON: Commandant McKeon says people would not support us. He has a right to his own opinion in that part of Ireland he speaks for. I say the [240] people of Tipperary will support us and from Tipperary down to the sea. Another point. [Did] Mr. Barl [recte Brugha] make any effort to put things right and to try and have the position of the army better than it was? I think every man on that staff should answer for himself as to why we are not in a better position and I think whoever is responsible should speak up and say what he thinks of it. It does seem strange to me and everyone else that we are not in a better position. It seems to me and I have reason for saying it that there was an effort to get arms out of this country. I believe there has been criminal negligence on the part of someone, two or three or four. I think I remember somewhere of a black book in 1801. Possibly there will be [a] black book now and that men may not think it disgraceful now, but when the people see the things in their perspective perhaps 10 years hence it will be different. Will the Volunteers follow this new Government? I know that I can speak at any rate for my own brigade and I do not believe they will.

MR. DUGGAN: Which new Government?

MR. ROBINSON: I do not think that requires to be answered—this Government that is electing itself as a buffer state between us and the British. As the President has said I think and I know many Volunteers will think that this will be ultra vires and will have no binding, moral, legal or any other weight with us.

COMDT. EOIN O'DUFFY: I am one of the Headquarters Staff but prefer to speak as an ordinary member of this House rather than as a member of the General Headquarters Staff. I am not a speaker and this is the first time I am speaking. I want to be as brief as possible and to state the position from my knowledge of the country. I should say at the very outset that I take full responsibility for saying unreservedly that I am in favour of the ratification of this Treaty. I may be called a coward for making that statement but I do not mind whether I am or not so long as I have not been called coward for the last 2 or 3 years. I did not study the Treaty very carefully but I see two points in it that commend themselves to me. The first is that it achieves what we have been talking and striving for since the fight began and that is that the British soldier and British Peeler will never again be seen in Ireland. The second point that struck me was that we would have an army of our own fully armed and equipped. I do not want to go so very fully into the other parts of the Treaty except to say that for the last 3 or 4 years [recte days] we have been in a kind of muddle. On the first day it was a matter of the Treaty as put before us against the Republic and those people who were in favour of the Treaty were greeted over there with a tricolour flag with a black band around it. I hold I am not one of those responsible for the black band around the flag because if our delegates are responsible then our Cabinet is responsible, then the whole House is responsible because I did not think our delegates when sent to London would bring back a Republic but I do think they did bring back something that would be towards it. On the second day of our deliberations we dropped the Republic; everybody dropped it (Cries of, No, no.) At least we dropped the questions of discussing the Treaty versus the Republic but a Treaty [versus] a second treaty and we were told then there was only a shadow of difference between the second meeting of [sic] the Treaty signed. On the 3rd day we got back to the Republic and we were told that there was only a shadow of difference between the Treaty No. 2 and the Republic. That is the position we find ourselves in. As I said before I do not think there were 6 members of this House who objected when our delegates were sent across to negotiate with the enemy on this matter. I do not think there were 6 members of this House who said the terms of reference must be curtailed and I think it is very dishonest to put our plenipotentiaries in the dock and say, “Because you did not bring back a Republic you let us down.” We must consider what our position really is and must not bring down the honour of these men before the Irish nation. So far as I am concerned it is honour first and liberty next. When our delegates were chosen they were chosen because of their fidelity, courage and their honour. We have given our trust to those men and we should not relieve [recte revile] them when they have shown themselves worthy of our trust. As regards to the form of oath it appears from most of the discussion, and so far as I am concerned, to be divided into two parts—the first part says we give allegiance to Ireland and the second part [241] we promise to be faithful to King George as head of the group of nations. I do not want to take an oath to any English king but I do say the first part neutralises the second. If you bear true allegiance to Ireland I say the rest has no meaning. You must first of all swear to be loyal to Ireland and I think the other matter is a mere form of words after that. I was speaking to a very distinguished member of the Irish hierarchy and for the sake of argument I agreed [recte argued] against the Treaty and he is in favour of it. I told him I take that then I will not be able to shoot any more Peelers. “Oh,” he said, “you will be no worse than you were before”. I should say as far as I am concerned I do not mind about these symbols because I realise that it is by force and force alone that England holds this country. It is not symbols that we have been up against all along. It is force. Then when the Treaty force is removed then I feel it will be in a position to develop our national life. As regards the question of the resumption of hostilities we have heard a good deal of talk here on the subject. I do not pretend to be a prophet in the matter but I know the country pretty well. I know what the position is. Well I know what our position was in London when our people there were being shadowed; I know the position in Dublin when every office and department was covered and three or four lorries of armed Auxiliaries were travelling through the streets of the city. I know that the Truce would have been broken inside two hours and, if the delegates did not meet again, I know that here and there there would be outbreaks on a small scale which would lead to this. We know that human nature could not allow the enemy to go unrequited so to speak. That is the position and whether it would be well for us to continue in that position indefinitely is for us to decide. So far as I am concerned if this is to go on we would be as well to start at once. If we allow this thing the enemy will get into the position he held before July 1st last. If that were so I would recommend every company to strike and strike within 24 hours. I feel on this question of keeping the Truce that it is impossible and I am glad the Minister for Defence agrees with me on that matter. The alternative of war [was] referred to. For me war has no horrors. I am not a bit afraid of war and the men as I know them have no fear of it. We want to get the enemy out of the house, and I consider the position certainly more satisfactory when we get the enemy out of the house than running the risk of trying to get them out by force of arms. The only pleasure in freedom is fighting for it. At the same time we have a big responsibility placed on our shoulders. Lives of young men of Ireland were in our hands and we know that in the building up of the nation we will require them. I am not a bit afraid myself nor are my men afraid of war, but the responsibility rests on this House of offering the young men as [gap in original] to for what they can secure now by the mere acceptance of this Treaty. It is no breach of honour. If I felt this was a finality I would not approve of it. I feel that, under it, it will be in a stronger and better position to deal with England. We know too in the intermination [recte interpretation] of the Treaty several matters of difference arise and we will have several opportunities of getting back with honour. As regards Mr. Fahy who spoke this morning I think I should say a little about my experience of the country, that I have been in three-quarters of Ireland and I know the position pretty well. During the last six months there I met many Volunteers. As a member of the Headquarters Staff I have been meeting Volunteers in every portion of Ireland and know what they feel and what the country feels in the matter. It is only right therefore and the country should give you the benefit of my experience [sic]. I want to say first that if the war is resumed I as one shall be in the forefront and the officers and men will do their best in every way. I agree with the Minister of Defence that since the Truce there has been an improvement in the members and discipline of the men and that they are a little better in the way of equipment. We certainly have improved but we have to consider where the balance of improvement lies, whether on ours or the enemy's side, how far we can carry on with honour as regards Ulster. The Deputy for Monaghan referred to the Partition Act but certain parts of Cavan and certain parts of Donegal would come under the next boundary. We in Monaghan have been able to deal with the enemy there without very many arms. I think Comdt. McKeon will speak for Cavan and I think so far as Donegal is concerned there are several Teachtaí from it here who will speak, but I do say that taking up the five Northern [242] divisions including County Louth of these counties—and some of the Teachtaí from those areas can contradict me if I am not correct. As regards the Six Counties we have done pretty well in the past against the Orangemen with the equipment we had but we did feel that the enemy were better equipped than we were. If they were not better equipped we would not have to fight against these people because they are cowards but we made damn good use of the material we had. As regards other parts of Ireland, Leinster I need not speak about it—First Eastern Division I want to say I wished it were stronger more particularly around Dublin. He was not important that Dublin enemies centre would be in a better position [sic]. In the future I hope they will be able to keep the enemy confined in Dublin. As regards the other portion of Leinster, the men from Wicklow will speak for themselves. We will [gap in original] to them please God when the fight begins again. As regards the Midlands they have been covered already but I do want to refer to the Eastern [recte Western] Area. I have been all through the West and I am glad to pay my tribute to the Volunteers of the West. I have never met a nobler or manlier body of men than the Volunteers of Connemara and Mayo. The poor fellows often travelled as far as 50 miles to meetings and they have taken full advantage of the Truce to go through an effective course of training. Regarding the question of the Republic, I hold I am a Republican. I hold that the action I am taking in this case is towards the Republic. I feel that to act otherwise would be to deny the men that would secure the Republic arms. I recognise it as a stepping stone only, I regard it as not being final, otherwise I would be false to my oath and my country. As regards the question of coming back the President said he hoped a Republican Party would be returned to An Dáil. I hope so very sincerely. I am not recognised as a Republican. I will not seek re-election. If there is one man or woman who feels I have turned down the Republic I will not seek their suffrages.

MR. MELLOWES: A Chinn Chomhairle, I am not going to make a speech. I am only going to deal with a few things that struck me during the debate yesterday and today. What I want to say is that the nature of a speech will be made at a public meeting of the Dáil. The first thing I noticed was the statements made reiterating that when the negotiations were entered into that all of us swallowed our principles. I want to say I did not swallow any principle, I defy anybody here to tell me that I did. When the Truce broke out, broke out perhaps is the right word, Lloyd George issued his invitation to discuss the Irish situation. I felt that all was perfectly right. The Truce on our part did not involve the breaking of any principle. To have refused to discuss the situation would have certainly put us very wrong in the eyes of the world and when our delegates went to London, and now we are asked why we did not raise any question when they were appointed, I say the thought would have been unworthy of me as a Republican to be questioned on motives of any other Republican but I did not for a moment think or I would have spoken then that the negotiations were going to result in this, in what I can only call without offence to anybody for whom I speak, we may find what I believe the betrayal of the Republic. You could go to London or anywhere to talk about that subject that the delegates went to talk about. I do not believe that we could reach a satisfactory solution of this question because I could never see how the interest of the British Empire and the national aspirations Ireland could be reconciled and I did not believe at that stage that they could be because the Irish Republic and the British Empire are such vitally different things, one imperial and the other antithesis. I did not see how they could be reconciled but I did think the negotiations gave a unique opportunity of bringing this case of ours to the front and having it thrashed out with the British Government with the eyes of the world looking on. I did not expect the delegates would come back with anything because I did not expect we were going to win the Irish Republic through talking, therefore when people said we swallowed the principle I said not. I stand now where I always stood, for the Irish Republic. The Speaker of the House addressing us yesterday asked us were not we all Republicans, and everybody said yes. I just wish to show what a great deal of harm may be done in thinking. He then asked were any of us Dominion Home Rulers, and everybody said no, and I hold you cannot deny the existence of the Irish Republic and remain a Republican. This Treaty is a denial of the Republic. We are not looking or seeking for Irish [243] independence. Irish independence existed since 21st January 1919, and it is not to-day we ask for the Republic. We are defending it. Now to me at least it has been an actual thing, not something to be visualised. I hope before God I am prepared to go down in this struggle rather than surrender that principle. To me, I may differ from a great many minds here, the victory was not everything but to me the winning of it was everything. I believe there was only one straight path which leads to this ideal of ours and that it was only by going the straight way when members stand up and tell you they will continue to be Republicans [sic]. I have not fought for that Treaty. I do not doubt that in five years hence I venture to say those men will not be Republicans. I for one, holding the principles I do, could not, if this Treaty is approved, have hand, act or part in the Government of this country or serve in what would become to me the Irish dominion, or neither could anybody else who believes as I do. While we would all love to be together as comrades yet the passing of this Treaty would irrevocably break me away from this gathering or other gathering if it accepted this Treaty. We will talk of what will happen in four or five years time. We know that human nature is weak no matter how strong we think ourselves today. After a month of Truce we don't want to go on with another fight. I say after five or six years' peace we will certainly not go on with it. Under the terms of this the people of this country, though you may not think so, because [recte become] British citizens and we who stand by the Republic still will I presume rebel against the new Government that would be set up if this Treaty is passed. [It] would to us occupy the same position that Dublin Castle occupied in the past. It would simply stand between us and the British Government. I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings but somebody mentioned South Africa went to fight the British Government. They fought their own people between them and the British Government. Somebody denied, I think it was my friend Alex MacCabe, talked about Nelson and his blind eye. To illustrate his remark you turn your blind eye to the Irish Republic and you save the British Empire.

Somebody yesterday spoke about the wishes of the people. I hold I was elected as a Republican. I never asked anybody to elect me but having been elected I hold I was elected here on the basis of an Irish Republic existing. I have not yet been told that the Irish people scrapped the Irish Republic and when they tell me down in Galway you were elected to get something less I will tell them you may dispense with me. I know that if this question were put before the people that they would vote for this Treaty because they have been left no other choice. The ground here has been cut from under their feet; it would not be a fair test if the people under existing circumstances so that anybody—what we all know [sic]. We are warned of the consequences of a split or division but you can only have unity on the principle and those who will depart from this principle are in my opinion responsible for any division or split because those who will alter the status of Ireland for [recte from] a Republic will cause any division or split. I am not going to talk about the action of the delegates. They have acted as they thought best but I do say that on the question of unity, of preventing a division, of stopping a split that there is one way it can be done and that is by the rejection of this Treaty. You can come with us but we who are against it cannot go with you. Yesterday from the remarks the President made it might be inferred that you had got to vote either for this Treaty or reject it and that afterwards we could all meet here again and so merrily on. I don't know whether the President meant that or not but I know at this moment we are at the most fateful crisis and that in the history of this country that we have built up we are at this moment on the verge of overturning in my opinion. I am prepared to walk the way we always went —the quiet of peace and war. I suppose the document came in to-day or yesterday but since I was fourteen years of age the question of peace and war does not count in this matter. It does not count in this matter but what does count is this matter we are going to fling away for the fear and the consideration of war the Irish Republic.

MR. O'SULLIVAN: The Deputy for Galway said the question of peace or war does not enter into this discussion as far as he is concerned. I presume he means personally if it were a matter for us to go out and offer up our lives, to do something to make Ireland more free, there would be no need to continue this debate. If we thought that by offering our lives we would make [244] Ireland better and offer to bring the Irish nation more life we would do it. Some hard, nasty, personal remarks have been passed all day especially as to what the dead would have done. I have no proud memories to relate to this Assembly but I have this to say, that I was the person who hoisted the white flag over the G.P.O. in Easter Week. I did it because Seán MacDermott, Lord have mercy on him, was unable to stand on his feet at the time. That is not a very proud memory; it is a very sad one; but I believe that this act in itself was a good act for the Irish nation; that it is the Irish nation that commits [recte counts] whether it be a Republic, a Free State or an Irish Kingdom. My gallant friend, the Deputy for Galway, said that there was no intention of anybody there giving way on the Republic. I feel that we are too much on the word “Republic”. Remember the President said if possible we could get an association of the Irish Republic with the British Empire. I take it that he meant the Irish nation would not put the British Empire down to a Republic. It is as I say no part of our business to decide whether the government of this country is to be a Republican government or to be another one. I know why I was elected to this Assembly. The greatest argument I used— and as a matter of fact I used some arguments to get elected. Séamus Lennon the senior member used the same argument and that argument was taken from Thom's Directory. The population of county Carlow in 1914 [recte 1841] was 86,000 and in 1911 it was 36,000 so that in 70 years Carlow lost 50,000 people. That is the Irish nation we are put here to save; and it is because I said to those people by voting for Séamus Lennon you will be voting to put out of this country the people that did that in 70 years. I have not figures for Kildare but I remember my friend the Minister of [gap in original] was then in Belfast Jail I remember at the time. If our figures, and I used a similar argument, count that is what we should remember—individual nations— and our lives should not count but the life of the nation does count. It was because when the people put before them that evil of the race murder, it is because we put that publicly before them when the first Dáil was elected and as I believe legitimately at the [gap in original] of the nation. If this Treaty be rejected let us omit from [recte for] the moment this issue of peace and war that race of instruction [recte destruction] which brought about 50,000 people, not to mention extinction of the natural increase in population, that 50,000 were scattered all over the world and they had become the backbone of the movement which sought the recognition of the Irish Republic in America. Mind the Irish race and people are being extinguished while we sit here arguing whether we will have external or internal association with another nation. Speaking for the 36,000 that are left in the county, there are 16,000 voters, I want to say this about them. I am not going to speak and will not speak on army matters. There are most irregular and unjust questions to these matters here in justice to the Minister for Defence. We should have some statements regarding verification of the charge levelled against the Minister of Defence because I have heard it stated that the Minister responsible did not do all was possible for the procurement of arms. To do that Minister justice and all the members of his staff they did the best they could for Ireland. Of this 36,000 people left in County Carlow when it comes to war every man, woman and child will have to be defended. If you reject the Treaty war is the consequence.

The Deputy went on to refer to army matters and continuing said: In this matter it is not for the soldier to decide what the country should do. What the army will do and can do depends upon the morale of people to build up the Government, maintain it and I say here and I am sure I will not be contradicted that there is no Minister did more than the Army Minister to keep alive the Government of Ireland. That is why I feel a double responsibility in giving an opinion on this Treaty. I heard so many speeches during the past two or three days about people who never compromised or anything left on where I did not compromise [sic] but I would like to say that the people of Ireland want Irish freedom and they do not know what a Republic means. If a Republic is the best thing for Ireland they are for a Republic seeing it is the best for Ireland. We are faced today, at least on Monday, with a decision. We are asked to decide between certain types of association, internal and external. The alternative is not leaving the association. We are told we will have to swear an Oath of Allegiance to the [245] King of England. We have never heard of an oath of allegiance to individuals in this country. We always found these things very hard to swallow. I was enquiring for some friends what exactly this oath meant. You will be told if it means anything from a hundred other things, first it is an oath of allegiance to Ireland. When the Parliament of the new Government of Ireland is set up it will draw up its own constitution to which you are loyal and once said you will be faithful to the king because he is one of the contracting parties. Suppose this person said when a man gets married he promises to be faithful to his wife which is a very different thing from owning allegiance to her (A voice, “Wait until you get married”). Other Deputies insist on telling me their domestic troubles. He explained to me according to English law if one party to the contract is unfaithful that a contract is dissolved. I do not know whether we are bound down in this Assembly to swear that at no future date will we divorce King George but I do know that we certainly cannot swear for the next generation or any other. Somebody referred to the tricolour being draped. I saw the tricolour oftener in mourning than anybody here. I saw the tricolour in mourning when there were very few to look at it, very few who had the courage to look at it covering the remains of two of the greatest soldiers. I speak of Dick McKee and Peadar Clancy. Very few had the courage to come out and see the tricolour draped on their coffins and screw the lids on the coffins. I have been thinking ever since I saw this Treaty of many conversations I had on these two men and I certainly would not say that either of them would vote against this Treaty. It has been said that voting for this Treaty was to run away from the tricolour, to run away from Irish freedom, of [recte from] everything good for Ireland. I would just say this much: that I think when there was running away it was not the plenipotentiaries who signed the Treaty who did it. (Hear, hear!).

The session adjourned at 6.15 p.m.

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